Payout Stake, not Liability Stake

[Inz]

Hey guys,

I'd like to set up my stakes to lay to a payout figure, not to a liability figure.

Eg I set a payout stake as 200, then every horse I click to lay will be setup to stake according to the payout stake.

So a horse at 5 will be 40 stake, a horse at 20 will be 10 stake etc.

Is this possible with Geeks Toy?

[Cran]

The examples you give are liability stake (but you forgot to subtract 1 from the odds).

if you want to payout £200 when the horse wins your stakes are

odds 5.0 = stake £50
odds 20.0 = stake £10.53

This is what liability stakes does already.

[Temujin]

The examples you give are liability stake (but you forgot to subtract 1 from the odds).

if you want to payout £200 when the horse wins your stakes are

odds 5.0 = stake £50
odds 20.0 = stake £10.53

This is what liability stakes does already.

Actually, the OP has it correct. The payout is the same as ticket value if you were backing the selection. If you go to the BF website, and set up a 200 payout bet at odds of 5.00, you will indeed get a bet value of 40.

Liability is minus your stake, payout includes your stake. Apart from the technicalities though, I use liability mode so not sure that can be done.

In looking though, is it true that Book Profit staking is basically trading with hedging automatically without needing to actually hedge?

[The Geek]

Actually, the OP has it correct. The payout is the same as ticket value if you were backing the selection. If you go to the BF website, and set up a 200 payout bet at odds of 5.00, you will indeed get a bet value of 40.

Liability is minus your stake, payout includes your stake. Apart from the technicalities though, I use liability mode so not sure that can be done.

In looking though, is it true that Book Profit staking is basically trading with hedging automatically without needing to actually hedge?

Yes & no. It works based upon single tick hedging at the value in the staking box. So yes if you do 1 tick counter trades & no if greater than that. { So I suppose the correct term for it would be 1 Tick Hedged Profit. } I used the term "Book" profit as it's spread across the book. { And the shortcut for Hedging was 'H' so needed something different. }

[Cran]

Actually, the OP has it correct. The payout is the same as ticket value if you were backing the selection. If you go to the BF website, and set up a 200 payout bet at odds of 5.00, you will indeed get a bet value of 40.

but if I lay at 5.0 for £40 I only pay out £160... not £200...

If I lay £40 at 5.0
Win £40 or lose £160

If I back £40 at 5.0
Win £160 or lose £40

Where does the £200 come from? Well I can see that it is just getting your stake back like if you'd actually given the money to a bookie, but why would you want to lay to a £200 payout instead of your £160 liability...?

[Temujin]

but if I lay at 5.0 for £40 I only pay out £160... not £200...

If I lay £40 at 5.0
Win £40 or lose £160

If I back £40 at 5.0
Win £160 or lose £40

Where does the £200 come from? Well I can see that it is just getting your stake back like if you'd actually given the money to a bookie, but why would you want to lay to a £200 payout instead of your £160 liability...?

Because as with a bookie, your stake is handed over, and included in your return. You give him 40, he gives you a payout of 200, which gives you a profit of 160.
Until that horse wins, the backer has handed over their stake. Fair enough it isn't in your account yet, but that is how the term is applied.


And the reason somebody may wish to bet like this, well one reason, probably quite a few, is to always be betting the same level.
Odds 1.10 for 200 payout is 181.18 bet. It means you will never bet more than your bank, and will never have to change stake types regardless of the odds.
It is actually probably the most efficient way to bet, as it recognises that the odds represents the chances of an event occurring, and weights its bets exactly that way. For a gambler in particular, this is a very important method, but also has merits in other forms of bet participation.

[Cran]

Because as with a bookie, your stake is handed over, and included in your return. You give him 40, he gives you a payout of 200, which gives you a profit of 160.
Until that horse wins, the backer has handed over their stake. Fair enough it isn't in your account yet, but that is how the term is applied.


And the reason somebody may wish to bet like this, well one reason, probably quite a few, is to always be betting the same level.
Odds 1.10 for 200 payout is 181.18 bet. It means you will never bet more than your bank, and will never have to change stake types regardless of the odds.
It is actually probably the most efficient way to bet, as it recognises that the odds represents the chances of an event occurring, and weights its bets exactly that way. For a gambler in particular, this is a very important method, but also has merits in other forms of bet participation.

Ok, but I still don't really see the advantage over laying to liability...

I hand over my £160 and if the horse loses I get it back...
I'm never risking £200.

I'll run this through my historical data later and see if I get a better return laying to backers rather than liability stakes.

[Temujin]

Ok, but I still don't really see the advantage over laying to liability...

I hand over my £160 and if the horse loses I get it back...
I'm never risking £200.

I'll run this through my historical data later and see if I get a better return laying to backers rather than liability stakes.

Yeah, you hand over 160 and if the horse loses you get your 160 back, plus 40 dollar profit. You hand over 160 for your bet, and in return for a winner, you receive a payout of 200. No? You are not ever risking 200, and nobody suggests you are, that is what your liability is.

Realistically, it shouldn't make too much of a difference to your profit margins, depending of course on how you bet. Obviously your turnover will be lower, but the ratio should be about the same.

Where it will differ, is leverage bets. For example liability staking under 2.00 your stake used will be bigger than your liability. The extremity is increased as you go down, obviously.
The same way, if you use your allowed liability as a back stake over 2.00, you are betting to a level that your liability could never reach. You are using leverage.

Basically, if you are getting true odds, and using payout mode, over the long term, any trades that you haven't traded out of, will return you 100%, as your ratio of bet entering is always exactly the same. Your risk level is directly proportionate no matter what odds you are backing. On a strictly mathematical basis, it is the most efficient way to bet.

[Temujin]

The other thing to say, is if you wish to make a book without using the bookmaking feature, which as far as I can tell works well in entering a market full of bets, but is a little labor intensive to enter individual runners, payout staking is a very important way of doing so.

[Cran]

Ok, I can see why it is efficient of you are betting at many different odds and/or for a small amount of bets.

If you are making 1000's of bets and/or bets < 2.0 and/or a limited odds range then you may as well use the higher stake that you can use with liability. (assuming your edge works of course).

I guess for the OP the simplest solution at the moment might be stake buttons, the calculation is fairly easy.

Maybe The Geek can be persuaded to add custom staking formulas to the next release?

[Inz]

You guys pretty much have sorted it out.

I'm looking to see if I can use AGT to run a book, rather than trading so much, and as Temujin nailed it, payout is my preferred way of doing so. I can't find any software that offers it, which has driven me crazy for a long time.

Cran I think you are right - a range of stake buttons is about my best option by the look of things.

Thanks for the discussion ... if you have any further ideas for me rather than stake buttons and calculating the payouts in my head I'd appreciate it.

Cheers

[Temujin]

From what I recall, other software does have payout staking? If not, a couple of them have Excel integration so if you know anything at all about Excel, should be quite easy to set up a little bookmaking bet placement sheet.

Other than that, maybe just write down the pros of this staking and bring it up in suggestions. If the Geek sees merit in it, I am sure it will feature at some point as I would imagine it would be a very easy addition since the formula would just be varStake = payout / odds...

But here, this will kick you off with your argument.

Geek Mr nice man, if you see it in your heart will you please look into this idea. At the moment, we appreciate your bookmaking feature addition just recently, it works a treat. But, the reality is, if you have a bet that doesn't get matched, there is no real way for the program to adjust this bet except the user doing it manually with a calculator at hand. Even selecting individual runners, you can't seperate the into a % of a book, it is either classed as all your bets, or bets to a profit/liability stake.
I feel that the addition of a payout staking option would compliment your beautiful bookmaking feature remarkably well, and even give users the option of setting up their own book one at a time, even if they didn't initially start out wanting to do that, just because they were using the "new" payout staking.
It would also save the "hassle" of having to use different types of staking methods depending on the odds you are trading. eg liability lays under 2.00 compared with staking backs at the same odds. This way, you could trade at any odds you like, knowing that you will never use your whole bank, and knowing that every trade you enter is directly proportionate to every other trade you enter, regardless of the odds you are trading. It really is the most efficient trading stake method.
Very easy to implement too (not a coder, but should be just the addition of an extra "module?"), as I said the formula is just varStake = payout / odds, same formula for backing and laying.


Personally, I am at a level where I just utilise my whole bank, depending on how I feel at the time, so I don't need the efficiency and as such probably wouldn't use the stake type for trading, but do do a bit of bookmaking/dutching when in the mood. But for new traders, and "strict rules" traders, and especially people that like making books, dutching runners, etc etc, this would be the clear choice for staking type and would be a valuable addition.

[Inz]

From what I recall, other software does have payout staking? If not, a couple of them have Excel integration so if you know anything at all about Excel, should be quite easy to set up a little bookmaking bet placement sheet.

Other than that, maybe just write down the pros of this staking and bring it up in suggestions. If the Geek sees merit in it, I am sure it will feature at some point as I would imagine it would be a very easy addition since the formula would just be varStake = payout / odds...

But here, this will kick you off with your argument.

Geek Mr nice man, if you see it in your heart will you please look into this idea. At the moment, we appreciate your bookmaking feature addition just recently, it works a treat. But, the reality is, if you have a bet that doesn't get matched, there is no real way for the program to adjust this bet except the user doing it manually with a calculator at hand. Even selecting individual runners, you can't seperate the into a % of a book, it is either classed as all your bets, or bets to a profit/liability stake.
I feel that the addition of a payout staking option would compliment your beautiful bookmaking feature remarkably well, and even give users the option of setting up their own book one at a time, even if they didn't initially start out wanting to do that, just because they were using the "new" payout staking.
It would also save the "hassle" of having to use different types of staking methods depending on the odds you are trading. eg liability lays under 2.00 compared with staking backs at the same odds. This way, you could trade at any odds you like, knowing that you will never use your whole bank, and knowing that every trade you enter is directly proportionate to every other trade you enter, regardless of the odds you are trading. It really is the most efficient trading stake method.
Very easy to implement too (not a coder, but should be just the addition of an extra "module?"), as I said the formula is just varStake = payout / odds, same formula for backing and laying.


Personally, I am at a level where I just utilise my whole bank, depending on how I feel at the time, so I don't need the efficiency and as such probably wouldn't use the stake type for trading, but do do a bit of bookmaking/dutching when in the mood. But for new traders, and "strict rules" traders, and especially people that like making books, dutching runners, etc etc, this would be the clear choice for staking type and would be a valuable addition.

Thanks for your reply ... I will do as you suggest.

Just one more question - I had a quick look thru the software and the manual ... where do I find this beautiful bookmaking feature?

[Temujin]

Is a new feature out with the Beta version, so if you don't have access to it I would suggest it is because it is being tested by users that put their name on the list and not available to the masses as of yet.
Not sure on availability to the masses, so I would suggest just ask the Geek via PM, or no doubt he is keeping an eye on threads anyway and will probably reply with an answer to you in here. Usually isn't too far away.

[Cran]

Beta is available to everyone, just need to download it...

http://www.geekstoy.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6200