So You Think V Workforce

[Rondetto]

I would have posted earlier but I have been waiting form my alarm to go off as I thought I must be in a dream.

10/11 So You Think

15/8 Workforce

So you Think gets beaten by a horse who gets beaten 8 lengths by Workforce in the Epsom Derby.

Workforce goes on to win the Arc returns this season 80% fit and wins again.

I realise that the 10 furlong trip may look like an issue but the way he swept clear of his field at Epsom leads me to believe it won't bother him one iota.

The way I look at it is, if Rewilding, thought to be a St leger Horse found speed enough to outclass So You Think, I would suggest Workforce wouldn't be out of a canter to do the same thing and this betting is completely topsy turvy.

[Temujin]

Depends how So You Think is ridden this time. No horse outclassed him, the jockey gassed him by riding him like a sprinter for the whole race.

SYT wasn't fit enough and will take a lot from the run.

Apart from that, you can't really compare different races and say "beat the same horse by 8 lengths" when it comes to English racing. The race was set up by all the horses for Rewilding who still needed to ride outside of the rules to get it home. It may not have been the case when he raced against Workforce.

Either way, SYT is the obvious pick, only issues are his numpty trainer and if they keep the same numpty jockey on it..

A disappointed Ryan Moore said So You Think "just didn't pick up like I expected"

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horse...#ixzz1QdSgAYQ7

Umm, you had been whipping it for 500 metres and wondered where his kick was for the last 300? rotflmfao... Comical..
Bart Cummings training, usual jockey, horse runs this race at 1.40.....

[Rondetto]

I would imagine that numpty jockey you refer to will be riding Workforce

In my very humble opinion I think you should go watch the race again mate.


So You Think was a bit too keen and pulled himself to the front immediately but within a furlong or so Ryan had him settled and traveling in cruise control. Beautifully poised as the commentator said turning for home Ryan having a couple of lengths on the rest decided to make use of that advantage and kick for home.

Ryan Moore was virtually motionless for the best part of the race and never more than 2 1/2 lengths in front of Rewidling until after the home turn

Had Ryan sat longer and given away the 2 1/2 lengths he had on Rewilding I sincerely doubt it would have been in his favour.

I would add I am not comparing races I'm comparing horses and emphasizing the point Rewilding is not regarded being in the same class as Workforce.

He may well have all of a sudden improved but the fact is Rewilding prior to beating So You Think had never won at the trip and had only one Group 1 win to his name in sunny Meydan against horses who wouldn't qualify as pacemakers against the best around.

So I can't wear the bookies have got it right.

The hype and the phenomenal reputation of Numpty trainer Aiden O'Brien are influences this market big time IMO.

They could well be right as could you but I know where my money will be going.

Happy punting

[Temujin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWCpk...eature=related

Here is where he is ridden properly. Eased down on the line, the whip wasn't bought out til about the 300 metres, used for about 150 metres, very sparingly to win eased down in 2.02.45..

He has a cruising speed as good as anything. Whip used to put it beyond doubt, simple as that..
Compare that to the race the other day. His "pacemaker" wtf nearly took his head off for a start, cruised up with 1k to go, travelling beautifully, then whipped it hard for 800 metres. Compare that with Rewilding, stalking the pack getting a cushy run.
You can say what you like about Rewilding not being more than 2-3 lengths away the whole trip, but the simple fact is that is how horses are trained over there, to go 1 pace, and see who can walk over the line first.
Are you seriously telling me that SYT wouldn't have still been in front or within half a length of Rewilding with 3-400 to go without even reaching for the whip? Does that, he pulls away and wins by 4. He was out on his feet, ridden by somebody that never watched him race, trained by somebody that did nothing with him and gave the order to run him behind a ridiculous pacemaker that was gone 1000 out in a 2000 metre race.
Jockey panicked when he hit the front and committed him. The pacemaker, should not have been used for a start, but given that he was, he should have still been leading at the 600. Pacemaker sets the pace up right? Not just runs as hard as he can til he can't any more?

Just saying, the horse is a lot better than the result of that race and the price certainly backs it up. Hey, you have the trainer on your side though. Not sure Moore sitting on your horse will help your cause though. Doesn't appear to have much upstairs....

[Shaun]

When do they race?

[Rondetto]

They are due to meet on Saturday in the Coral Eclipse at Sandown Park.

[Rondetto]

Temujin no disrespect meant but there's a huge difference between running in a Caufield Cup and say an Epsom Derby or an Arc De Triomphe.

Although it's a valuable race because it's run at around the same time as the Breeders and the Arc so the top notchers of the racing world never go there. Look what ended up running at the MC meeting last year most of them are has beens or wouldn't win a top handicap in Europe

Frankel aside the most recent star in Europe was Sea the Stars who's a long way of the best that has graced the British turf. Rewilding wouldn't have blown wind up his backside.

The point is, if any of those who finished behind So You Think in the Caufield ran in the Arc they'd think they had gone into orbit so him winning in that sort of company with no pressure on him means very little.

BTW all my mates come from Crunella/Sydney so debating this is nothing new.

I'll take my hat of to So You Think if he can beat Workforce but the way I see it he'll be lucky to finsih 2nd. I can see Ryan Moore cruising past him and he'll lose his action completely and be done for 2nd by Snow Fairy.

He's a monster of a horse and has a lovely action until he comes under pressure when he folds like a pack of cards. I saw the first signs of it in the Melbourne Cup and the same thing again at Ascot.

Sure you can put the MC run down to distance and weight but it also highlight the fact that under pressure he wilts completely as he did at Ascot

The fact you seem to be under the impression Ryan Moore is some sort of Numpty amazes me. To many Sir Micheal Stoute is one of the best if not thee best trainers in the world and Ryan not only rides for him but for people like AOB, Richard Hannon and anyone else who is half a judge and can get him. He's been champion jockey so many times he's forgotten more about riding than you and I will ever learn

I honestly think you stop blaming the jockey and start looking at the real reason and that's the horse himself.

If he comes under any sort of pressure in the Eclipse he will lose.

At the end of the day one of us will be proved wrong and if it's me I'll be the first to say to you, well done.

Happy Punting.

[Temujin]

The horse came under pressure because he isn't trained to be sprint the last 1000metres of a race getting constantly whipped. Not because another horse was there with him. He was exhausted and blew like it after the race. He wasn't fit and was ridden wrong, simple as that.

I am not saying he will win the race. I can't say that because I don't know which horse the connections have chosen to win the race. What I am saying, is that he is a worthy favourite, and is huge value given a fair race.

Moore, buckled and panicked. There was nearly half the race to go, the pacemaker had gone that hard that he was finished and going back through the field.
Any numpty could see that the pacemaker set too fast a pace, you only needed to be behind him to see him hard ridden. What do you do in a fast pace race? Well, Moore likes to whip his horse hard for over 4 furlongs and hope that the horse doesn't collapse in a heap and die.
It was a bad ride pure and simple from a jockey that panicked when the pacemaker fell in a hole.


As for your "best trainer in the world", it is UK racing, as crooked as it gets. You can't compare races won on merit with races won on corruption.
Just look at Yeats. Horse was "unbeatable" over there in your hugely world dominant events. Goes to Canada, beaten 12 lengths, back to UK wins the Gold Cup and Goodwood Cup, then finishes 7th in Melbourne, beaten by a horse that wouldn't "win a handicap in Europe"...


Futile argument however, since the connections will decide who will win anyway. Can't see that being SYT. Can't have a horse from downunder show them up on their own turf.
Fairly ran race, horse trained for it, jockey good instructions, SYT 1.60... Under UK conditions, who knows what the magic number is that would get them to consider it as their choice winner.

[Rondetto]

I can see you are totally in love with the UK Racing scene. Ryan Moore can't ride, Aiden O'Brien presses buttons and wins with which ever horse he wants to and the whole game is crooked.

The fact is Ballydolye have a wealth of talent and occasionally the horse most of us, including them, think will win is beaten by his stable companion. Horses can improve stones past their stable companions over a period of weeks and if connections know that and keep it to themselves and have a punt that's life. We punters don't pay the bills and therefor are entitled to know only what they want to tell us.

There is no way on God's earth would they stop one and win with another in a Group race. Why on earth would they do that?

Wouldn't be for betting purposes as the increase or decrease in shed value can be $millions depending on whether a horse wins or loses a race like the Eclipse or not. There's not enough money in the ring to repair the damage when a horse like So You Think is beaten or a haorse loses his unbeaten record.

So You Think will be off for his life on Saturday as no doubt will Cape Blanco and both will run 100% on his merit. It's Madness to think otherwise. I've ridden racehorses for half my life and spotting a horse that's being stopped is the easiest thing in the world to do. Never once have I seen one of Aiden's being stopped in a Group 1 race so another could win.

What I have seen is him use certain tactics to give the horse he thinks is his number 1 the best possible chance off winning. That's not being crooed that's being sensible and just because we don't know which horse is doing best prior to a race doesn't mean he's a crook.

As far as Yeats goes he was a cracking Gold Cup horse and come June was always tuned to the minute. But if you think for one minute they sent him all the way to Oz to stop him you should take up another sport mate as your ideas would be at home in a Dick Francis novel.

He was kept on the go for 5 months to run in the MC and thought to be over the top when he ran in the Melbourne Cup, Which is hardly surprising as most of the UK's top horses have been roughed off by that time.

[Temujin]

The fact is Ballydolye have a wealth of talent and occasionally the horse most of us, including them, think will win is beaten by his stable companion. Horses can improve stones past their stable companions over a period of weeks and if connections know that and keep it to themselves and have a punt that's life. We punters don't pay the bills and therefor are entitled to know only what they want to tell us.

Their stablemates don't win unless they are given the tactics to do so. They don't just fluke a race when instructed not to, it is no surprise to them when their "stablemate" gets up. How exactly do you know which one they think will win?

There is no way on God's earth would they stop one and win with another in a Group race. Why on earth would they do that?

Jan Vermeer.. You are going to suggest that horse went into the race with a chance of winning? The horse was a pacemaker, a purely legal way over there to race. Send a horse into a race, have punters bet on it, then rip their ticket up 200 metres after the start when they realise the horse is not there to win but to ride for another.
The horse next to SYT was niggled along to keep the pressure on SYT and was gone within the final 800, even earlier.
SYT was ridden forward whipped like a maniac for half the race, and the one horse that got an easy sit won the race.
If you are telling me Aiden O'brien didn't lay SYT you are ****ing mad. Didn't train him for the race, sent him in unfit and ordered the jockey to whip him like that and ride him that hard? Set up a ridiculous pace for a horse with as good a cruising speed as any in the business anyway?

Why would they stop one in a group race? Was that not a Group 1 race? Jan Vermeer. You have to be joking.

Wouldn't be for betting purposes as the increase or decrease in shed value can be $millions depending on whether a horse wins or loses a race like the Eclipse or not. There's not enough money in the ring to repair the damage when a horse like So You Think is beaten or a haorse loses his unbeaten record.

There isn't? How much was traded on him? He still collected 2nd prize money, G1 race.
And even if they thought they had the right "tactics" set up, that just adds to the argument that they are morons and well overrated hacks. Its like they have never seen him run before.
I bet they didn't collect on Jan Vermeer either... Hmm...

So You Think will be off for his life on Saturday as no doubt will Cape Blanco and both will run 100% on his merit. It's Madness to think otherwise. I've ridden racehorses for half my life and spotting a horse that's being stopped is the easiest thing in the world to do. Never once have I seen one of Aiden's being stopped in a Group 1 race so another could win.

Jan Vermeer. Once again. Your whole paragraph holds nothing because your last line shows exactly what you know. Show me one bit of evidence that suggests Jan Vermeer was given any chance of winning the race.

What I have seen is him use certain tactics to give the horse he thinks is his number 1 the best possible chance off winning. That's not being crooed that's being sensible and just because we don't know which horse is doing best prior to a race doesn't mean he's a crook.

Of course it does. Do less than that in the stock market and you are behind bars. It is insider trading, fraud, and so many other things. Each horse entered into a race is supposed to be given every chance of winning. How can you have a gambling market for something that is pulled up knowingly? Compare it to cricket, Pakistan are the most hated cricket team in the world, England first to jump all over them for their corruption and knowledge of game events to profit from the betting markets. Yet they totally accept it in their racing? rotflmfao..

As far as Yeats goes he was a cracking Gold Cup horse and come June was always tuned to the minute. But if you think for one minute they sent him all the way to Oz to stop him you should take up another sport mate as your ideas would be at home in a Dick Francis novel.

I never said they sent him out to stop him? WTF? Stop putting words in my mouth.
You were going on about how SYT is no good because he was beating nothing over here. The horses he was beating are no good and couldn't win a handicap over in Europe. I merely pointed out that one of your greatest ever horses that couldn't lose in Europe, couldn't win anywhere else. Why is that? Because the quality of horses and racing over there is so much better than everywhere else as you have stated? Kidding yourself. Got done 12 lengths in Canada ffs. I didn't even know they had racing there and it couldn't come close to them.
My point, is that racing is not as strong as you think over there. Send an unbeatable English horse overseas where racing is run on its merits, and it was just another battler.
Write that on his statue...

He was kept on the go for 5 months to run in the MC and thought to be over the top when he ran in the Melbourne Cup, Which is hardly surprising as most of the UK's top horses have been roughed off by that time.

Yes, I am sure that they travelled half way across the world with a horse way off its game to try and win the Melbourne Cup.

The difference here, before you respond, is this horse travelled to win the race, same connections. SYT didn't travel anywhere to win anything. He was sold to new connections, and obviously far inferior ones at that, crooked as they come. Although, maybe not so different to any other trainer over there.

[gorgeous-george]

An awful lot of bollocks been talked on here!!! So You Think is BETTER than Workforce without question in my eyes. Wether i would bet him odds on is another matter as I never really bet that short as it doesn't pay long term

One thing I am sure of though, If SYT turns up Saturday fully fit he will win easily... CAN'T WAIT

[Rondetto]

Geezus now we got Aiden O'Brien laying So You Think Laid it with who ffs? Certainly wouldn't be Betfair who at one hint of any unusual market activity would be on the blower to Scotland Yard.

It would have to involve millions for AOB to make it worth his while and the horse would have drifted like a barge.

Betfair reported Harry Findlay for laying one of his own a lousy few hundred quid. Individuals laying So You Think that don't lay horses at similar prices for huge sums on a regular basis would have be spotted in seconds.


If you actually believe what you are saying mate you have a very dull outook in life and have no conception of reality.. The owners of So You Think invest millions into AOB's business as do many others and if he stopped the horse and laid it, those same people would be gone in a flash and his entire world would collapse within weeks. Or maybe you think the whole bunch of them laid it and said stuff the shed value


As for Jan Vemeer anyone backing him knew the risk but that's not to say he was stopped. To be honest it wouldn't have mattered 1 iota if they had held him up he was always going to be outclassed

Cast your mind back to when no one in the yard would hear of defeat for Rip Van Winkle at leaopardstown. Huge sums went on him from Ballydoyle and he was sent off at 8/11. The idea was that Cape Blanco would set a strong pace to help him settle and they expected he would be able to pick him off in the closing stages, only Cape Blanco just kept going and going as Jan Vemeer might have.

It's got nothing to do with stopping horses it's all to do with stud value and if one loses and another wins they as a business still come out on top.

AOB has so many good horses there will always be upsets but he isn't and couldn't afford to be crooked or even thought to be. He is surrounded by people who aren't exactly dumb and pretty much know the game outside in, so even if he was bent he wouldn't in your lifetime get away with it.

[luckynumberslevin]

Interesting from both viewpoints.

Certainly for this race So You Think has a lot of things going for him most importantly race distance and stable(firing in the winners). Workforce to be fair is a 12f + horse and if he's improved aka harbinger then it will more than likely be in this direction and not lesser. Also the Stoute's stable isn't exactly on fire at the moment so that has to temper enthusiasm for the horse. I'm not stating here not to back workforce but I would not be getting carried away with the price. If stoute's main horse wins at 10f on fastish going then he really does have a 'proper' horse on his hands considering the above. So I will not be backing him. (I did though for last years derby and arc- that price in the arc was unbelievable)

Overall too much in So You Thinks favour for this race. Races in the future tables may be turned.

Pretty disappointed with the field to be honest cut up badly. Group 1 need to be bigger than this with genuine group one potential winners. Too much choice/options for trainers and owners me thinks.

One thing clear to me at this moment in time is that both horses plus the sheila in this race will face tougher assignments in the future and all will probably need to be even better to prevail than saturdays race.


Lets hope both race well and injury free in order to hit future targets.

[luckynumberslevin]

An awful lot of bollocks been talked on here!!! So You Think is BETTER than Workforce without question in my eyes. Wether i would bet him odds on is another matter as I never really bet that short as it doesn't pay long term

One thing I am sure of though, If SYT turns up Saturday fully fit he will win easily... CAN'T WAIT

In my opinion-

Not bollocks just interesting form/race read from two different viewpoints.

So You Think should be better than workforce this saturday but not better period.

Betting odds on can pay long term, it's called selective betting.

So You Think will be fit and should be good enough on Saturday but will workforce be fully fit (stable virus etc.) is open to question and even if the stable was firing, would this race be suitable to see the horse to best effect. On previous evidence doubtful.

Both horses are good at what they do. Whether there is a race in the calendar where both can be seen to best effect at the same time is the real question for all those who seek matchups. Don't personally like 2 horse races it usually either means the field isn't what it should be or there's a trainer/owner out there with a huge grin on their face because nobody gives their horse a realistic chance of winning.


CAN'T WAIT - I can.

[custard]

Nobody seems to have considered two important points :

(i) Workforce will be ridden by Ryan Moore,

(ii) the track is Sandown, not Ascot, not Epsom.

Moore should know all about both horses. The distance is 1mile 2 furlongs but Sandown is a peculiar course and it will seem to be a furlong longer than the real measurement.

The Australian horse seemed to me to be a high class galloper who seeks to run others into the ground. He appeared to have no acceleration in his race with Rewilding. Workforce will be running on at the finish and I cannot imagine that he will be run out of it by any gallop that So You Think will set.

I think that Workforce will win from behind and take the Australian in the same way that Rewilding did. Ultimately, it will all come down to the which jockey can hold his nerve. The one who is leading at the furlong pole will lose.